Episode 129 — The Truth About Opus Dei w/ Gareth Gore

[0:00:00] Hello, everybody, and welcome to The Backlash. I'm your host, David J. Reilly. We've got a great show for you tonight. We've got a very interesting guest who has had some very interesting meetings, and he is an expert on some stuff that we have talked about on this program before, namely Opus Dei. [0:00:21] so it'll be very interesting to see what our uh our guest has to say this evening but before we [0:00:28] get into the interview you need to smash smash the like button on this video follow our channel [0:00:36] you can follow all of our social media channels we are on x at real backlash our website the [0:00:43] TheBacklash.net has all of our content. [0:00:48] You can support the show on Subscribestar.com slash The Backlash, [0:00:53] Patreon.com slash The Backlash, [0:00:55] and of course you can find all of our, [0:00:59] oh, look at that, you know, starting off strong, [0:01:02] you can find all of our links at TheBacklash.net slash subscribe. 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[0:03:05] And he is the author of a book that came out last year called Opus, The Cult of Dark Money, Human Trafficking and Right-Wing Conspiracy Inside the Catholic Church. [0:03:16] Today, I am very happy to present Gareth Gore, who is joining us today. [0:03:22] Thank you so much for taking the time, Gareth. [0:03:24] You're very welcome. Greetings from London. Thank you for having me on. [0:03:27] Awesome. Yeah, no, so I wanted to talk, you know, this book caused quite a stir. [0:03:32] There's been a lot going on in the church, you know, all the way from the death of Pope Francis, [0:03:38] the transition of power to Pope Leo. And with all of this, there has been a kind of undercurrent [0:03:45] of scandal brewing in the Vatican about this group, Opus Dei. Now, we've talked about Opus Dei [0:03:51] on this podcast before a lot, actually. You know, the conspiracies are abundant. But you wrote a [0:04:00] whole book on it. So if you could, please run us through from your point of view, what is Opus Dei? [0:04:07] How did it start? And then we'll take it from there, I guess. [0:04:14] Sure. So Opus Dei is an official wing of the Catholic Church, which was founded by a Spanish [0:04:21] priest by the name of Josemaria Escrivá in 1928. So he basically was on retreats and he had an [0:04:31] epiphany, or as he later described it to his followers, a vision. He said it was a vision [0:04:36] directly from God for this new movement that, I guess, at least initially aspired to help [0:04:43] ordinary Catholics to basically live out their faith more deeply without, you know, having to [0:04:48] become priests or nuns it was kind of this new this new way for really serious catholics to go [0:04:55] to go that much further to go kind of deeper and to be more serious about their faith um that's how [0:05:01] it began um but very quickly it started to transform into something quite different and i [0:05:07] think the historical context here is quite important as well i mean when he had this [0:05:12] vision or epiphany whatever you want to call it spain was a deeply divided society this was [0:05:18] the late 1920s early 1930s a country that was quite literally on the brink of civil war [0:05:23] the workers had risen up they'd overthrown the monarchy they'd voted in a new socialist government [0:05:30] and I guess the whole social contract was kind of being rewritten so people were beginning to [0:05:36] ask questions about the church's role in I guess the repression of the working classes and the way [0:05:43] that the church's role in things like education. [0:05:46] And, you know, I think it's fair to say as well, [0:05:49] people will be not only beginning to question the role of the church, [0:05:52] but beginning to turn their backs on the church. [0:05:55] And Escobar, the Spanish priest, saw what was happening around him. [0:06:00] And in the early 1930s, began to rethink what Opus Dei was. [0:06:06] So this kind of movement, which started with very, quite benevolent aims, [0:06:12] you know, helping ordinary Catholics to just kind of be a bit, to go a bit kind of deeper into their faith and helping them to be better Catholics. [0:06:19] It then began to take on this kind of political hue. [0:06:22] And he started to write these internal documents, which stipulated how his followers were not only expected to be better Catholics, [0:06:34] but were expected to infiltrate the corridors of power, were expected to, you know, use whatever means they could. [0:06:42] to push what was in effect a political agenda. [0:06:46] So, you know, very early on, [0:06:48] this group took on a very kind of political cue [0:06:51] and it remains so today, I think. [0:06:54] Yeah, you know, we've talked about this [0:06:56] on the program before, [0:06:58] especially in America. [0:07:01] It's crazy that people aren't that aware of Opus Dei, [0:07:06] especially considering the fact that [0:07:09] J.D. Vance, Elise Stefanik, Marco Rubio, John Ratcliffe, Duffy, Kennedy, Homan, the five [0:07:16] conservative Supreme Court justices are all, in one way or another, associated with the Opus Dei. [0:07:22] A guy named Leonard Leo, who is in charge of the Federalist Society, basically chooses who our [0:07:28] Supreme Court justices will be. There's been a lot of talk behind the scenes about J.D. Vance's [0:07:33] conversion and his links to the Heritage Foundation. Kevin Roberts, of course, is a [0:07:39] member of Opus Dei, the Catholic Information Center down there in Washington, D.C. [0:07:44] So when it comes to at least political Catholicism in America, they are very linked, [0:07:50] the two, Opus Dei and politics and the halls of power, if you will. I think it was that way also [0:07:59] So in Spain for a long time after the Civil War, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Opus Dei basically ran the banking sector in Spain. [0:08:10] Is that correct? [0:08:12] Well, more than that. [0:08:13] I mean, at one point in the in the late 1960s, this was when, you know, General Franco was still in power. [0:08:18] Half of the cabinet was made up of Opus Dei members. [0:08:23] And yes, you know, absolutely across the entire kind of, you know, world of business and politics, world of law in Spain in the 1950s, 1960s. [0:08:34] And, you know, kind of right on, even after Franco died and democracy was brought in, Opus Dei has really had a very strong foothold in all of those worlds. [0:08:46] Now, you know, it's part of the DNA. Whenever this group decides to expand to a new country, whenever they set up a new cell, they normally send out members from Spain or other countries to kind of establish themselves in new countries. [0:08:59] the aim is always to penetrate the political judicial business elite because they know that [0:09:08] the founder himself said that if you want to change the size if you want to push through [0:09:13] political and a certain political agenda then then you do that by infiltrating the elite people who [0:09:20] are in um you know people who have the power and influence to to basically kind of push things [0:09:27] through. And so, you know, when it expanded to the US in the late 1940s, early 1950s, [0:09:34] that was the intention, that was the plan. It didn't, you know, it took them a number of years [0:09:40] to really become established in the States. I would argue that it wasn't really until [0:09:44] the late 80s, early 1990s, that it really became quite entrenched, especially in Washington, DC. [0:09:50] um today there are about 3 000 officially at least there are about 3 000 opus day members [0:09:58] across the united states and about 800 of them are based in the dc area alone which tells you [0:10:05] all about you know it tells you a lot about how this group has really focused its recruitment [0:10:10] efforts over the years as a catholic organization you'd expect it to be big in chicago new york [0:10:17] Boston, Miami, when actually it's the largest Opus Dei community is in the Washington, D.C. [0:10:23] area. And that's because of what we were just talking about. The political aims of this group [0:10:28] dictate how it recruits and who it recruits. It's important that your viewers, your listeners, [0:10:35] understand that unlike the rest of the Catholic Church, which is open to anybody that wants to [0:10:41] come in and join and be part of that way of life. Opus Dei is by invitation only. They seek you out [0:10:48] as a potential recruitee. You can't just go onto the Opus Dei website and request a brochure be [0:10:55] mailed out to you and you kind of fill in a form and send a check every month. It's absolutely by [0:11:01] invitation only. And they only really want people who can help them push forward this political [0:11:05] agenda. Interesting. What, in your opinion, is their political agenda? Well, it kind of shifts [0:11:12] and changes, I think, through the years and depends on whatever country they're in. But I [0:11:17] think it's very much kind of defined by it's a kind of it's a reactionary agenda. It's pushing [0:11:22] back on what they see as the progressive advance that that has contaminated Western society over [0:11:30] the years. And, you know, I myself perhaps don't agree with that. But at the same time, [0:11:39] you know, political freedom is part of society. These are people that are entitled to, you know, [0:11:45] anyone is entitled to have a view and push their political agenda in whatever way they want to. [0:11:52] But my issue with Opus Dei is the way that it abuses people's spirituality and their faith [0:11:59] in order to do that, often without the membership even knowing what's going on. [0:12:03] So this is a group that has habitually broken the seal of confession in order to collect [0:12:08] information about its membership. This is a group which has, over the years, [0:12:15] kept detailed files about its membership. You know, this is an organization that has kind of [0:12:20] more to do with the German Stasi, the kind of East German Stasi, than it does with other wings [0:12:25] of the Catholic Church. This is a group which basically expects all of its members, in addition [0:12:31] to, you know, going to confession, attending its classes, they expect you also to do this thing [0:12:36] called the chats or the confidence, which is a form of spiritual guidance. But again, it's all [0:12:43] about control and manipulation. These sessions are used to extract information. It's passed up the [0:12:48] chain. And then the higher ups, you know, whether they're in Washington, New York, or whatever, [0:12:53] or in Rome, they then use that information to decide how best to use the Opus Dei network, [0:13:00] how best to manipulate their members into doing whatever that might be beneficial to [0:13:06] the group, whether that's politically or financially or however else. [0:13:11] Interesting. You know, this reminds me of something. Speaking of breaking the seal of [0:13:17] confession, and I'm not sure if you're aware of this, you probably aren't. It's, I guess, [0:13:21] more like internal squabbling amongst Catholics here in the United States, but there was an outfit [0:13:26] called Church Militant that was run by a guy named Gary Michael Voris. Gary Voris had a lot of ties [0:13:34] to Opus Dei, and as a matter of fact, a numerary was on the board of directors of Church Militant. [0:13:40] His name was Mark Bramer. Mark Bramer was also on the board of directors of Culture Wars Magazine [0:13:49] and Fidelity Press, which was a group that I actually worked for under E. Michael Jones. [0:13:54] What's interesting is that it appears as though there have been allegations made that the seal [0:14:00] of confession was broken in order to expose Michael Voris as a homosexual, which is interesting. [0:14:10] I've never heard this idea of them breaking the seal of confession before. I don't have any proof [0:14:14] of that, so don't sue me or anything, but it does seem like they operate that way, you know, [0:14:21] some of the information that E. Michael Jones had in his book. Now, I think it's a good thing [0:14:26] that that was outed, you know, we don't need, I think, homosexuals running around accusing [0:14:31] the clergy falsely of, you know, sexual impropriety to cover for your own sexual misdeeds, [0:14:38] which is what seems like was going on with Michael Voris. But can you tell me a little [0:14:43] bit more about this. You know, one of the claims that you make in your book is that Opus Dei is [0:14:49] deeply involved with human trafficking. Can you explain this angle and how that, I guess, manifests? [0:14:57] So the way that Opus Dei operates is that, I mean, you mentioned a kind of internal term, [0:15:03] which is the numery. So these numeries are kind of, I guess, the grand troops of Opus Dei. So [0:15:09] about 25 of the membership 20 25 of the membership are made up of these numeraries and these are [0:15:15] people who have basically sworn themselves to opus day they've dedicated their lives to opus day [0:15:20] they haven't quite taken vows but what they've done is pledged to lead a life of um of poverty [0:15:27] of celibacy and critically of obedience to the movement so you know they they they've kind of [0:15:34] given their lives to the movement and they are completely obedient. They do whatever the [0:15:39] directors ask of them, whatever the group expects of them. One of the primary things they do is [0:15:46] they go out and recruit. They recruit, as we were saying before, the right types of people who can [0:15:50] help Opus Dei really kind of push its agenda. And they're also a critical node in this whole [0:15:57] kind of spiritual guidance thing. So yes, of course, Opus Dei members confess to a priest, [0:16:02] but the spiritual guidance sessions are actually run by these numery members and the numeries they [0:16:08] live in gender segregated houses so you know in dc for example there are three or four houses like [0:16:16] two for men maybe two for women um they're run by director um and life inside i've spoken to so [0:16:23] many people who've lived in these centers life inside is miserable because you know every element [0:16:29] of these people's lives is is kind of intricately controlled um you know over the years you know [0:16:36] the director would listen in on phone calls would come and expect to be able to kind of go through [0:16:40] your emails in the olden days when people received mail the director would open it first and read it [0:16:45] before it was allowed you know a huge amount of of control i mean i i would argue and i certainly [0:16:51] argue this in the book that this is a it's an abusive cult uh a high control group um um that [0:16:57] basically just uses Catholicism as a kind of veneer to help to win more members. So these [0:17:03] numeraries live in these gender segregated centers. Now, because life is so weird and [0:17:11] controlled, they don't want outside people coming in to cook and clean for them or whatever. So what [0:17:16] they did, what El Paso J has done since the late 1940s is in addition to recruiting, you know, [0:17:22] from the elite, they're also at the same time recruiting a smaller number of people from the [0:17:28] kind of the, I guess, underprivileged parts of society. And so, you know, since the late 1940s, [0:17:36] the group has gone out. And they initially, you know, when they were in Spain, when I guess [0:17:41] the kind of working classes were bigger and people, you know, young girls maybe had fewer [0:17:47] expectations from life, they found it quite easy to recruit these kind of servant girls [0:17:51] from inside of Spanish society. [0:17:54] But as countries like Spain have evolved [0:17:58] and women have grown to have, you know, [0:18:01] bigger expectations from their life, [0:18:03] they found it harder and harder to recruit. [0:18:05] So what they've done is shift this recruitment process [0:18:07] out to the developing world. [0:18:10] And so, you know, since the 70s, 80s, 90s, [0:18:14] they've set up these so-called hospitality schools [0:18:17] in places like Argentina, Nigeria, Kenya, the Philippines, [0:18:20] even in parts of Europe where these kind of servant girls are recruited and you know often [0:18:29] they're like 12 13 years old when they're kind of taken away to these schools so they're shut off [0:18:34] from their parents and you know when when they're in these schools they're basically kind of pushed [0:18:39] and coerced into joining Opus Dei as these unpaid servants and then they're shipped off to wherever [0:18:45] they're needed in the world often without consulting these girls there's you know you may [0:18:49] think this is you know some people may be listening to this or watching this thinking [0:18:54] like what the hell like really is this going on in this day and you know i can absolutely assure [0:19:00] you that this is going on um very recently um public prosecutors in argentina having had a tip [0:19:08] off about you know a group of women in the country that had had experienced this they launched their [0:19:13] own investigation and after a two long a two-year-long investigation they've decided [0:19:18] to basically bring criminal charges against Opus Dei. [0:19:22] There will be a trial in the country later this year. [0:19:26] Four Opus Dei priests will be standing trial [0:19:29] for human trafficking offences and serious labour offences. [0:19:32] The deputy head of Opus Dei globally [0:19:35] is also implicated in this case. [0:19:37] And I know there's a push to also bring the leader of Opus Dei [0:19:40] into the case as well. [0:19:41] So, you know, these are very serious charges. [0:19:43] I don't use terms like human trafficking lightly. [0:19:49] We thought long and hard before we used that term in the book. [0:19:55] The book was heavily lawyered and signed off by lawyers. [0:19:58] They were very happy that the evidence that we had backed up these claims. [0:20:02] And since the book came out, as I say, public prosecutors in Argentina have made the very same conclusions that we came to as well. [0:20:10] So this has been going on for many, many years. [0:20:12] This is a huge scandal, I think. And we're only just starting to uncover the enormity of this scandal, I think. [0:20:21] Now, is this is this involving things like sexual abuse or is this just specifically like labor? [0:20:31] So there have been instances inside Opus Dei of sexual abuse. [0:20:37] and because the um the organization is so worried about its image um there have been many many [0:20:45] instances of cover-up over the years um you know i think the the instinct inside opus day and that's [0:20:52] certainly kind of been the reaction to my book the instinct is um we must protect the image of [0:20:58] opus day at all costs even if that means covering up wrongdoing and so there have been many instances [0:21:03] of sexual abuse that have been covered up. [0:21:06] I would say that I think the real issues inside Oprah's Day, [0:21:11] I don't think that the issue of sexual abuse [0:21:13] is any worse inside Oprah's Day, [0:21:16] compared to some other groups as well. [0:21:18] There have been other groups where maybe [0:21:19] the cover-up of sexual abuse was maybe much more serious. [0:21:23] I'm thinking groups like the Legionaries of Christ and others. [0:21:28] I think the real issues are the more serious issues [0:21:32] and the more prevalent issues are those of human trafficking, coercion, manipulation of members, [0:21:39] control, breaching the seal of confession, grooming children, I think, is another big issue as well. [0:21:45] So I think, yeah, the kind of sexual abuse stuff does exist, but I don't think it's any bigger [0:21:53] than it is in some other parts of the Catholic Church. Sure. And that's fair. Now, I guess, [0:22:00] you know, I'm Catholic, right? I'm not, and I'm not just Catholic. I'm like a traditional Catholic. [0:22:07] I'm one of these rad trad right wing, uh, you know, pre Latin mass, uh, pre Vatican two types, [0:22:14] you know? And so like, for example, I send my daughter, uh, to a school run by nuns and, you [0:22:21] know, of course I would be thrilled if my daughter decided to become a nun or, I mean, or she got [0:22:25] married, that'd be fine too. But I guess, you know, there is, within the Catholic Church, [0:22:31] there is kind of a pride in having your children go on to be a priest, be a nun, you know, to work [0:22:38] for the church, to give their lives to the church. And so I, you know, I'm kind of conflicted about [0:22:45] this idea of, you know, grooming, let's say grooming, or, you know, like if a nun, for [0:22:51] examples you know like like a young girl goes to a school where she is you know told that you know [0:22:57] being a nun is a very good thing she becomes one and then the order moves her from where she grew [0:23:04] up perhaps to a different country either to be a missionary or to be in a cloister or something like [0:23:09] that would you consider that human trafficking um not the way that you've told it now but i think [0:23:16] what's going on in inside upper state is something very different and you know the process of [0:23:20] discernment has to be something that's done freely and has to be done um you know by the individual [0:23:26] and you know if by the individual themselves with knowledge of um you know what they're getting into [0:23:33] that is not the case in elpris day what happens usually and this usually happens you know from [0:23:39] the age of 10 11 12 years old is that the numeraries that teach at these schools are [0:23:45] kind of monitoring each of the students and looking for the ones that show the best potential [0:23:50] not as good Catholics and good Christians, but the best potential for Opus Dei. [0:23:57] They're looking for the people who are going to be best at kind of perpetuating this kind [0:24:03] of cycle of recruitment. [0:24:04] So they're looking for people who are really kind of friendly and sociable and who can [0:24:09] insert themselves quite well into kind of the right social circles. [0:24:13] And so if you take, you know, the kind of list of things that they're looking for, they [0:24:18] decide to kind of elevate you and there's no discussion with you about what you know we're [0:24:22] considering you for as you know for a vacation inside office day we think it might be something [0:24:27] you might want to consider that just does not happen if you meet their criteria which again [0:24:33] it's not discussed with you you're then kind of elevated to this kind of new level within the [0:24:37] school so you're given new opportunities so and these are dressed up as like clubs so if you're [0:24:42] you know and they target them to whatever your interests are so if you're a young kind of geeky [0:24:47] kid who's interested in photography they might say oh we've we've just launched this new photography [0:24:52] club and we'd like you to come along a couple of nights a week after school and you know i guess [0:24:58] um at least overtly it seems just like a photography club or whatever but actually [0:25:04] it's run by numeraries and what they're doing is trying to become your new best friend they're [0:25:09] trying to i guess pick you off from your friends spend more time ensure that you're spending more [0:25:15] time with them than you are with your friends more time with them than you are with your family [0:25:19] and this is what's really happening is not being discussed with the parents or even with the child [0:25:25] it's all about is this person someone who might be useful for opus days a later date and you know [0:25:33] going back to what we were talking about before with the kind of a more natural free process of [0:25:38] discernment that's not what the discussion about when to push you into um your vacation is being [0:25:48] it's taking place you know between the numeraries between the numeraries and the priests the numeraries [0:25:53] and the directors and when they think the moment is right they basically kind of kind of pounce on [0:26:00] you it's kind of a pincer movement you'll have the priest telling you one thing but they are kind of [0:26:05] coordinating with the other numeraries that are in your sphere. And it's this kind of, [0:26:10] it's almost an assault. You know, they basically push you. And the way, you know, the way they do [0:26:16] it as well, it's really quite vicious. I've spoken to so many people who were told at the age of like [0:26:21] 14, 15, God has decided that this is your vacation. If you decide to turn your back on us, on God, [0:26:30] on this on this vacation then you will go to hell your entire family will go to hell yeah it's a [0:26:36] really quite brutal system of of coercion i mean let's let's kind of call it what it is this is [0:26:43] it's child grooming which kind of which and and coercion and you know it's it's it's abuse and [0:26:50] it's it's abuse of the good nature of the parents who've sent their kids to this catholic school [0:26:57] believing that they're just going to get a good Catholic education. [0:27:00] And it's an abuse of the teacher-child school relationship as well. [0:27:07] And I think I've spoken to so many people who not only have been recruited, [0:27:14] but I've also spoken to many, many of the recruiters themselves [0:27:17] who have since left Elpa's Day, [0:27:19] who have openly talked to me about the pressures [0:27:22] that were put on from them above. [0:27:24] you know they were expected to basically recruit x number of kids per per year and if they didn't [0:27:31] meet the kind of recruitment they were in trouble with their bosses and and they would be punished [0:27:36] um for not having recruited enough children you know every year and we've just had this [0:27:41] um in the middle of march since saint joseph's day is the year where all of these new people are [0:27:47] kind of you know it's the day where basically the kind of new recruits are meant to kind of [0:27:52] come and ask to join Opus Dei. [0:27:54] And so in the weeks leading up to March 19th, [0:27:56] there's this incredible pressure [0:27:58] to basically coerce young kids [0:28:01] into joining the movement. [0:28:04] Fascinating. [0:28:06] Now, there's a couple of different angles [0:28:08] that I want to go on. [0:28:10] In your research, in your book, [0:28:16] did you find any links [0:28:19] between Opus Dei and the world of intelligence, CIA, MI6, this type of stuff? [0:28:29] Well, I mean, there was the famous case in the early 80s, 90s, Robert Hansen, the kind of [0:28:36] this, yes, so-called kind of Russian Soviet super spy. He was recruited by the Russians in [0:28:45] the late 70s i believe it was um to so he was a member of opus day his wife was a member of opus [0:28:51] day the kids were being brought up inside opus day he i guess for whatever reason i i think he was [0:29:00] um in a bit of kind of financial trouble and he saw you know betraying his country as a way to [0:29:05] make make a bit of money and keep up the school fees or whatever and um his his wife basically [0:29:12] found out that he was spying for the for the soviets and she took him to see the opus day [0:29:20] priest to work out what to do about it the opus day priest initially said well it's kind of clear [0:29:26] what you need to do you need to go and hand yourself in first thing tomorrow you need to [0:29:30] come clean and um they went away i guess husband and wife you know went home knowing that the next [0:29:38] day he was going to hand himself into the authorities and then the next day they early on [0:29:43] they got a phone call from the same opus day priest a very high-ranking um a guy who one stage [0:29:50] was the the most high-ranking opus day member in the entire united states they get a call from this [0:29:55] guy saying remember what i told you yesterday well actually i think it's probably a better [0:30:00] cause to not say anything i think you should just stop what you're doing and you should maybe give [0:30:07] some of your money to charity um and we should all move on um so you know that was a grave error [0:30:15] because this guy went on to spy for the soviets for another 20 years he gave critical information [0:30:23] over to the soviets that resulted in numerous people losing their lives and you know did i [0:30:29] guess irreparable damage to the security of the united states and all because i mean it's hard to [0:30:36] know what the precise motivations of the opus day priest were i mean like if we're going to be [0:30:43] generous we could say that maybe he didn't want a family to be split up and maybe he believed that [0:30:49] this guy would actually stop doing what he was doing but his advice um perhaps was also um driven [0:30:57] by desires and you know they didn't want scandal for for opus day in the u.s you know opus day after [0:31:04] a number of years of kind of struggling to really make a mark in the US was really starting to [0:31:10] gain a bit of ground. They'd found a number of wealthy backers and they were, you know, [0:31:16] the donations were pouring in, they were having much more success in terms of recruiting the right [0:31:21] kinds of people. This would have been a major setback for the group. And so I, you know, I [0:31:26] suspect that, you know, it was at least in part driven by a desire to avoid scandal for Opus Dei [0:31:34] But, you know, that the results for the wider United States and and for the world were disastrous. [0:31:43] Yeah. You know, it's it's kind of crazy. We've mentioned I think I've mentioned this case before of Robert Hansen on the program. [0:31:51] It's it's fascinating. It also seems like there was some weird sex stuff going on with Robert Hansen. [0:32:01] uh i'm not sure if it's here there's a very good podcast i mean i don't want to you know [0:32:06] don't publicize your competition but there was a great podcast done a couple of years back [0:32:13] where they go into all of that yes absolutely so he had um what's the name of the podcast [0:32:17] it's fine we can promote them it's fine top of my head but i can maybe dig it out [0:32:22] it's fine it's fine don't worry about it uh i'm sure that people are adept at using google these [0:32:30] days. It's not that hard to pull this stuff up. But, you know, there was also something that [0:32:37] we've talked about on this program before. There was a book that came out a few years ago, 2015. [0:32:42] Oh, wow. A decade ago, 11 years ago, called Operation Gladio by Paul Williams. Have you [0:32:49] had a chance to read that book or are you aware of it? I have read the book and I'm aware of [0:32:55] um operation gladio and you know like during the research for my book it's something that came up [0:33:01] on a few occasions but um but i i never felt i had sufficient evidence to really kind of flesh [0:33:09] that out in the book that i did speak to to at least one person um so so the central character [0:33:15] in my book is this spanish banker called luis vales taberno who was um who was a numery member [0:33:20] of of his day and um he basically helped the group to infiltrate this bank which became [0:33:28] a cash machine for the for the group that you know they siphoned off hundreds of millions of [0:33:33] dollars if not billions of dollars to expand around the world so i spoke to someone who knew [0:33:39] him very well he this guy died in 2006 but um but the guy i spoke to who knew him extremely well [0:33:45] kind of just [0:33:48] we were kind of talking [0:33:51] and he just gave just this one throwaway [0:33:53] line which kind of really [0:33:54] kind of took me [0:33:56] aback and he kind of he said [0:33:58] do you know that behind [0:34:00] Ronald Reagan and [0:34:02] behind Margaret Thatcher [0:34:04] the person [0:34:06] who most influenced [0:34:08] kind of the fall of the Berlin Wall [0:34:10] and the fall of [0:34:12] communism in [0:34:13] in the former Soviet Union was this Opus Dei banker, Louis Valls Terrona. [0:34:20] And I was like, you know, well, you know, tell me more. [0:34:23] And he kind of, you know, he's like, well, there was lots of money flows. [0:34:29] And he helped money to get behind the Iron Curtain at the right time and helped, you know, [0:34:35] I guess he was talking about, you know, money going to things like solidarity in Poland and the rest of it. [0:34:41] I never I was never able to really flesh this out which again is why it didn't make it to the book [0:34:47] there was a very high threshold for for getting stuff into the book because we knew it would be [0:34:51] it would be poured over by Opus Dei and any any kind of you know so so we you know it was a very [0:34:58] high threshold for getting stuff in there I would have loved to have dug more into that but I never [0:35:03] really had a chance but the you know there was I guess there's talk there are indications [0:35:08] that this Opus Dei guy was involved in helping to get money behind the Iron Curtain and helping [0:35:17] to bring down communism as well. Interesting. See, it's like, this is one of those things where [0:35:22] it's like, I'm deeply conflicted as a, as a like right-wing reactionary myself. You know, it's like, [0:35:28] I hear, I hear criticisms of Opus Dei, like, oh, they want to, they want to ban abortion and get [0:35:33] rid of women's rights and i'm like cool like that's fine it's the other stuff that bothers me [0:35:40] it's the uh it's the connections to the cia it's the spying it's the coercion it's the the kind of [0:35:47] duplicitous uh nature of it that bothers me you know absolutely look i mean i i i probably don't [0:35:54] agree with you politically but at the same time you know i i very much kind of welcome a plurality [0:35:58] of political views if people want to push a reactionary agenda that you know you have every [0:36:05] right to do that but you have to do it openly you can't do it by abusing the good faith of [0:36:13] catholics who believe who believe that all they're doing is kind of opening themselves up to this [0:36:18] group that's going to help them to be better catholics when there's this when actually [0:36:22] there's this kind of whole um political agenda underpinning the movement sure and the very [0:36:27] members themselves aren't aware of what's what's happening to them and how they're being used [0:36:33] for this group's agenda yeah and so one of the things that i wanted to bring up [0:36:37] a claim that was that made it into the operation gladio book i don't think it made it into your [0:36:41] book but we'll bring it up here uh you know and this is my tweet how much money did the opus day [0:36:46] launder through the vatican for the cia uh according to paul williams book in 1971 [0:36:52] the CIA began funding Opus Dei and the Vatican established its first shell company. [0:36:59] And of course, this all is deeply intertwined with BCCI, Operation Gladio, obviously, [0:37:06] things like the Iran-Contra affair. [0:37:08] And there's also some weird connections with Mormonism. [0:37:13] There was a bank, I guess, in Spain, [0:37:17] where a guy named David Kennedy started a partnership with an Opus Dei member, [0:37:26] and the bank was in Barcelona. [0:37:29] But anyway, I see you shaking your head furiously up and down. [0:37:33] Go ahead. [0:37:34] David Kennedy, who was, what was it called, Continental Illinois, [0:37:40] the bank was called maybe, or something along those lines. [0:37:43] He had many meetings with the protagonist in my book. [0:37:46] You know, I've been through all the bank records and his name crops up. [0:37:50] I'm not sure exactly what was discussed, but the fact that the two of them were meeting is interesting. [0:37:57] One of the very first things I did, in fact, you mentioned that the CIA, though, one of the very first things when I started reporting the book was to file a freedom of information request with the CIA and with the FBI. [0:38:13] I'm still waiting to hear back. [0:38:15] um this is six seven years on um so i you know i i did i did what i what i could to try to to to [0:38:23] find whatever you know but you know i i suspect there's a lot of information still there in the [0:38:29] cia files the fbi files that maybe one day will be open to the public i'm not sure but um yeah i [0:38:38] I mean, this Opus Dei story, I mean, I've just told one of the many stories that I believe need to be told. [0:38:49] I think there's probably an entire book to be written on Opus Dei's operations in each and every country. [0:38:56] And this is a group that operates in 70 countries. [0:38:58] There's probably 70 books to be written here about the way that this group has, you know, sought to infiltrate the world of power, about its kind of financial backing, about its connections with, you know, I guess the various arms of the state, such as the CIA or whatever. [0:39:16] There's only so much that one guy can do and there's only so much you can fit into one book. [0:39:20] And so, you know, I was kind of limited, but I think what I hope my book does is inspire other investigative journalists to kind of follow the threads in their own countries and, you know, in other facets of life to kind of really work out what Opus Dei was up to. [0:39:39] And just one other point you mentioned, the Mormons. Well, it's kind of interesting that there was actually this kind of alliance between the Mormons and Oba's Day in the late 2000s, I think it was. [0:39:53] They kind of joint funded one kind of, how should I describe it, one kind of nonprofit organization that was heavily involved in fighting same-sex marriage legislation in various states. [0:40:09] So, you know, I think there are many instances where this group kind of teams up with people. [0:40:18] You know, if their agendas are aligned, then, you know, why not kind of work together? [0:40:25] But I think I suspect that Opus Dei, at the end of the day, probably views the Mormon church with deep suspicion. [0:40:33] yet, you know, in certain cases, they're happy to kind of get into bed with them. [0:40:39] But I suspect that, you know, yes, in private, they probably aren't very complimentary about the moments. [0:40:47] Yeah, it's interesting. [0:40:49] You know, this kind of brings me to another kind of area where I have issues with Opus Dei, [0:40:57] where I kind of take issue with this. [0:41:00] and it's in the way that they allow non-Catholic collaborators to do things with the group. [0:41:11] Now, how do I put this? Let's see. I think that obviously people need to work together regardless of their religious backgrounds. [0:41:23] If there's a win that can be had with Mormons or even Protestants or something like that, I'm totally willing to work with them. [0:41:31] But there seems to be some weird overlap. [0:41:35] I guess it would be one thing for the Catholic Church to be working together with other non-Catholic Christian religions. [0:41:44] but it seems as though they're working together with groups that are anti-Catholic, [0:41:53] specifically Opus Dei or Chabad Lubavitch. [0:41:57] Hello, Chabad Lubavitch. [0:42:00] You can see, at least at the Catholic Information Center in Washington, D.C., [0:42:05] their participation in things like NATCON, National Conservatism, [0:42:10] which is basically a Chabad Lubavitch front group. [0:42:13] They support Jewish nationalism and they have the veneer of white nationalism, let's say. [0:42:20] But in reality, it's it seems like more of a ploy to get white people to support Zionism. [0:42:28] One of the things that is going on that we brought people's attention to on this show before before it actually happened was a meeting that took place in Washington, D.C. [0:42:41] at the Catholic Information Center, which is an Opus Dei cutout, that was funded by the [0:42:47] Phylos Project. The Phylos Project, of course, is Paul Singer, the vulture capitalist Paul Singer. [0:42:58] You know, he's the one that owns Chevron, right? There was this big deal that was just worked out [0:43:02] between Chevron and Venezuela. I think that Paul was a motivating factor in Trump's regime [0:43:10] change, if you will, in Venezuela. But it seems like there is an undercurrent in the DC sphere of [0:43:20] Opus Dei, where they're trying to get Catholics to sign off on Zionism. Have you seen this? Have [0:43:28] you experienced this? What are your thoughts? I think the best way of thinking about Opus Dei [0:43:35] is as a network. [0:43:38] And yes, at the heart of that network, [0:43:41] you have kind of full-on members, [0:43:42] like the numeraries, the supernumeraries, [0:43:44] who are the married members of Opus Dei, [0:43:47] who are Catholic. [0:43:48] And in the kind of wider periphery, [0:43:51] you might have people who are what they call cooperators. [0:43:54] Some of those are Catholic, some of those are Christian, [0:43:57] some of those are not Christian. [0:44:00] But what Opus Dei is about, I mean, [0:44:02] you've got to, the way to understand it is that it hasn't, [0:44:05] has an agenda and it does this by kind of forming a network and working out how best to use that [0:44:11] network and and so it may invite people into the network because they are useful politically [0:44:19] because they're useful financially because they are useful in there's a channel of getting to a [0:44:25] you know to to to someone else or to another group and so you know i think sometimes it's it's quite [0:44:32] hard i think i don't think we can necessarily assume that um that opus de is kind of pro-zion [0:44:39] and designism because it's cozying up to some of these people and welcoming them in to [0:44:43] you know give talks at its its main center in washington dc but i guess it sees some [0:44:50] potential benefit whether that might be politically or or financially from [0:44:56] align with these people and um and so i you know that's what kind of governs who invites into the [0:45:03] network above all else i mean somewhere like spain the network is extremely powerful um you know [0:45:10] there are people get their business kind of do business deals and get business opportunities [0:45:16] through the network there's you know there are judges there are allied to opus day and [0:45:22] Opus A can sometimes help to ensure that, you know, a certain court case might go in a specific way. [0:45:29] They have friends in the media who will give publicity to certain political parties or agendas or to certain businesses as a favor. [0:45:38] It's, you know, keeping you inside the network and, you know, this kind of this constant exchange of favors is, you know, that's kind of the way that these they operate as well. [0:45:47] but you know at the end of the day the expectation is that in some way these favors and these networks [0:45:54] will benefit opus day and its agenda in some way yeah you know it definitely it seems like that you [0:46:00] know especially in the united states you know one of the theses of this show is that you know [0:46:05] zionists have the power uh that they have seized power in the united states and that they're using [0:46:10] the united states as a as their their baton their sword i guess that is wielded you know and of [0:46:17] course, we've got the war in Iran right now that was, you know, according to Marco Rubio, [0:46:24] Catholic with ties to Opus Dei, he said that, you know, Israel dragged us into this war. And so, [0:46:30] you know, it's just weird, you know, like, I feel like we should be evaluating these things, [0:46:35] you know, from a Catholic point of view is like, you know, are we helping an anti-Christian state [0:46:41] that's genociding its population in Gaza and we're using our network to do that. [0:46:48] You know, like, at what point is getting a political favor from a group of people that are involved in genocide? [0:46:54] Like, that strikes me as perhaps violating some basic tenets of, like, Catholic morality. [0:47:02] God knows. [0:47:04] And, you know, to kind of double up on what you were saying about, you know, influence in the media, [0:47:09] It does seem like the National Catholic Reporter, EWTN, you know, a lot of these Catholic outlets, it seems like, is in bed with them. [0:47:20] And I'm not saying that they're overtly in bed, but it's like, you know, when somebody like John Ratcliffe or Elise Stefanik get appointed, [0:47:28] you start to see this chorus of media all praising, you know, the president for choosing all of these Catholics. [0:47:35] But it's like they're all in network. [0:47:38] They're promoting their own network and they promote each other's news organizations as a media ecosystem to kind of keep people in the corral. [0:47:49] Same way that conservative media, Fox News, they kind of do a very similar thing. [0:47:55] And now, I asked you about this a little bit before we went live, and you said you didn't really know, but I'll ask you anyway. [0:48:03] Are we aware of any overlap between Opus Dei and Jeffrey Epstein and the Epstein network? [0:48:10] Because, you know, the Epstein network, it seems to kind of operate in a similar way. [0:48:15] You know, coercion, recruiting, trading favors. [0:48:18] you know and of course there's that famous photo of Jeffrey Epstein with John Paul II who was [0:48:26] John Paul II was essentially promoted to the papacy by Opus Dei from what I understand [0:48:32] so is that anything that you've discovered in your in your research I mean I have to admit when the [0:48:38] Epstein when the Epstein files came out when they were dribbled out in the kind of various [0:48:45] um various batches you know i have kind of downloaded them and kind of searched for opus [0:48:51] day i found very relatively little so far what i haven't done is a is a real thorough [0:48:58] search for kind of all old kind of known members of opus day in the epstein database partly because [0:49:07] i'm i'm you know i'm partly keen to kind of move on to something else you know i kind of fell into [0:49:14] this rabbit, it's a rabbit hole. I fell into this rabbit hole by accident. And, you know, [0:49:21] I was sent to report on a bank that collapsed in Spain. And I just kept digging. I didn't really [0:49:28] know what Opus Dei was. I had no dealings with Opus Dei at this point, and just found this [0:49:33] incredible story. And I kind of joked that, you know, every time I feel I'm just about kind of [0:49:38] emerging from this rabbit hole and kind of getting on with my life and something new happens to kind [0:49:44] of drag me back in. It's kind of impossible to escape. Um, and, um, so, um, so I've done a very [0:49:51] kind of cursory look into the, into the Epstein files. I haven't done a very thorough look and [0:49:56] I haven't really found anything, but I would encourage other people to go out there and [0:50:01] to go, you know, to delve deeply into that. Go nuts. Go nuts. Yeah. You know, cause one of the [0:50:07] things that I found and it was, it was super interesting as it was happening, as the files [0:50:11] were coming out, I noticed there was a kind of PSYOP that was being pushed on X by mostly [0:50:17] Spanish accounts. And that, you know, that kind of ticked my radar. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, [0:50:20] Spain, Opus Dei, this is, you know, interesting. And basically the PSYOP was that Pope Francis [0:50:29] hacked Jeffrey Epstein for leverage. That was the gist of this. You know, one of these accounts [0:50:38] said the FBI revealed that the hack of Jeffrey Epstein would have originated from the Vatican. [0:50:43] You know, conversations between Steve Bannon and Epstein revealed messages where they were not only [0:50:47] showing their deep hatred for the Catholic Church, but also spoke of the need to overthrow Pope [0:50:51] Francis. You know, it says FBI hacking was carried out. FBI hacking of Epstein was carried out from [0:51:00] the Vatican. But when you actually read the paper, when you read the file, it says that Jeffrey [0:51:07] Epstein's hacker Vincenzo Ioso or we infer anyway that it was Vincenzo Ioso um he had a Vatican [0:51:17] passport not that the Vatican directed him to hack Jeffrey Epstein he was a hacker that was friends [0:51:24] with Jeffrey Epstein and he had a Vatican passport so it was just this weird kind of disinformation [0:51:29] campaign that I saw come out and it was just like uh what's what's going on and then there's there's [0:51:37] another weird connection that popped up in my research. And that comes from, I forget which [0:51:45] website I screenshotted this from, but apparently a guy who used to run the Catholic Information [0:51:51] Center in DC, a man by the name of Father Arne Panula, who graduated from Harvard, [0:51:58] became a member of Opus Dei, became a priest. He was very good friends with Silicon Valley [0:52:04] billionaire Peter Thiel, which again, you know, it's one of these things where it's like, okay, [0:52:10] you've got Opus Dei Catholic Information Center, friends with Peter Thiel, the [0:52:15] gay antichrist. I don't know. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You know, he's going around the [0:52:22] world doing these lectures on the antichrist. But so Peter Thiel, and then of course Peter Thiel [0:52:27] gives... I was in one last week. Yeah, yeah. And we're going to get to that. Don't spill the beans. [0:52:32] but you know Peter Thiel gives 15 million dollars he backs J.D. Vance for office he backed [0:52:38] Joe Kent who was another Catholic I believe there was another guy in Arizona Blake Masters [0:52:45] another Catholic backed by Peter Thiel so a lot of questions a lot of questions about people like [0:52:53] J.D. Vance their political associations how they came to power I'm not sure if you have like an [0:52:57] answer to this, but it's just one of those things that like it popped up and I'm like, [0:53:02] get out of here. Really? Like all the worst people are, are involved with this. [0:53:07] I mean, when you, when you hear of these people kind of being associated to, to Oprah's day and [0:53:13] being friends with Oprah's day priests, it comes as absolutely zero surprising. And I, in fact, [0:53:18] I wrote about, and there are a few pages in the book where I talk about, um, Peter Thiel's [0:53:22] involvement with this Opus Dei priest. [0:53:25] And by the way, this guy, this priest was not any priest. [0:53:29] At one stage, this guy was the most high-ranking Opus Dei priest [0:53:33] in the entire United States. [0:53:35] So it's not just some random Opus Dei priest. [0:53:37] This was a top guy. [0:53:39] This isn't the same guy that told the Russian spy not to turn himself in, [0:53:44] was it? [0:53:45] No, this was a different guy, yes. [0:53:47] But they both held the same. [0:53:48] They were both head of the U.S. at one stage. [0:53:52] But look, I mean, when you find these connections, like, you know, we were talking before about Kevin Roberts, the president of the Heritage Foundation, Leonard Leo, you know, Mick Mulvaney, Bill Barr. [0:54:04] When you hear of these connections, it doesn't surprise me in the least, because as we were saying before, the entire kind of modus operandi is to infiltrate the corridors of power. [0:54:15] And so when they're working at who it is they need to talk to, who it is they should be cozying up to, who they should be courting, it makes complete sense for them to target these people. [0:54:26] Now, whether these people go on to become full members, I very much doubt that Peter Thiel is a full member. [0:54:32] I doubt his sexuality would be welcomed by those inside of Opus Dei. [0:54:41] Whether they're members or not is a different matter. [0:54:43] but again i mean this kind of shows the kind of mercenary nature of opus a that despite [0:54:51] believing that something like homosexuality is a horrendous sin and you know they're very happy [0:54:59] to cozy up to someone like peter teal because it can help to push forward their agenda so there's [0:55:06] you know there's a very kind of mercenary attitude to to who they're willing to cozy up to and which [0:55:11] maybe kind of, you know, comes to your point earlier about, you know, the way that they are [0:55:16] posing up to, to some of these Zionist leaders as well. Now that was there, um, and this is just [0:55:22] off the top of my head. I remember reading once upon a time that there was some sort of like, [0:55:28] I think it was Bolivia. I could be wrong about that, but like in the 1970s or eighties, there [0:55:32] was like a CIA manufactured military coup. I don't think it was a Pinochet, uh, but it was [0:55:37] some other South American country that kind of turned into a technocracy that was kind of [0:55:42] administered by people in Opus Dei. Do you know about this? I think Chile, I think, I think, [0:55:48] yeah, with Pinochet. And there was some talk at the time, again, this is one of the things that I [0:55:54] kind of came across in my book, but I couldn't really kind of substantiate. So I kind of didn't [0:55:58] go into detail. But there were all kinds of allegations at the time and since that, you know, [0:56:05] actually certainly the years running up to the the the pinochet coup um that there were a number [0:56:11] of opus day aligned groups that were really kind of that kind of i guess were laying the ground [0:56:18] for that to happen and they were i guess um trying to undermine the government in any way [0:56:24] the socialist government that came before the coup they were trying to undermine that government in [0:56:28] any way they could and that they were very close to um to pinochet and and a number of other um [0:56:35] army leaders so yeah i think um i think uh that's potentially what you're you're thinking of there [0:56:41] but you know i mean we were talking earlier about how close opus day was to the franco regime and [0:56:49] you know it's also been in like the philippines for example during the dictatorship there that [0:56:54] they were very close to the regime and in you know places like argentina brazil um you know [0:56:59] This is a group that has, I guess, no moral qualms about cozying up to brutal dictators who murder many, many thousands of people so long as it can help to kind of push forward their agenda. [0:57:13] Yeah. Yeah. And see, it's like one of those things where, again, you know, I get we're coming from like different different ends of the political spectrum. [0:57:19] I'm like a big Franco fan, actually, you know, so like I think that he he did some great stuff, you know, and again, it's like deeply conflicting with this group Opus Dei. [0:57:29] because it's like on the one hand they fight socialism, they fight communism. [0:57:33] But then on the other hand, like at the time in Spain during the Civil War, [0:57:39] during a time when membership in the Communist Party was an excommunicable offense, [0:57:47] it seems like Jose Maria Escriva was encouraging members of Opus Dei [0:57:52] to join the Communist Party to inform, which, you know, I get it. [0:57:58] You know, it could be a good thing to get information on your political adversaries, [0:58:03] but to what extent? [0:58:06] You know, are you going to excommunicate yourself to get this kind of information? [0:58:11] It seems not okay. [0:58:13] And this is actually something that kind of came up because Jose Maria Escriva is a saint. [0:58:19] He was sainted by the Catholic Church, by John Paul II. [0:58:23] And correct me if I'm wrong, but the process of canonization usually includes, or it did anyway, something called the devil's advocate. [0:58:36] And this was somebody that was supposed to research the person who is a candidate to be sainted and to basically pick apart their life and find every bad thing that they ever did and then present that alongside all of the reasons for sainthood. [0:58:51] Now, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though that process was abolished for the canonization of Jose Maria Escriva. Is that true? [0:59:01] So the canonization of, first the beatification and then the canonization of Escriva was rushed through in record time at the Vatican. [0:59:12] And many people inside the Vatican, including many kind of conservative people like Benedict and many, many others, were horrified at the way that this process was rushed through. [0:59:26] And to your point, there were many, many people who came forward who had lived with Esquivar, who knew him closely, and who had very pertinent evidence to present to the Vatican to help them to kind of come to the correct conclusion about this guy. [0:59:46] And they were turned away. [0:59:47] So there were serious irregularities in the way that the beatification and canonization happened. [0:59:54] Even the doctor that signed off on the supposed miracles performed by him was a guy that later on had received an enormous donation from Opus Dei for a medical facility that he was running. [1:00:09] And so, you know, personally, I think I know this would be opening up a whole can of worms for the Catholic Church to potentially consider kind of decanonizing someone. [1:00:24] And I kind of, you know, I'm not a theologian. It's not my job to get involved in that. But I mean, I would argue that there's pretty strong evidence that there were irregularities in that process. And it would perhaps be prudent for the Catholic Church to revisit that process and kind of maybe reopen it, consider what it ought to do. [1:00:45] um you know i i would strongly encourage it to do that and also i mean this is [1:00:52] one of the big problems so at the moment the vatican is in the process of [1:00:58] trying to work out what to do with opus day pope francis issued this thing called a motu proprio [1:01:05] a papal decree in 2022 where he basically ordered the group to reform itself to redraw its statutes [1:01:13] that process has been ongoing for the past four years now the way i see it one of the real real [1:01:19] big problems that the vatican has with opus day is the fact that its founder escriba told his [1:01:28] members that um the idea the vision for opus day came to him directly from god he told his followers [1:01:35] was that God outlined Opus Dei in its entirety to him in this vision. [1:01:42] And in the years that kind of went on, [1:01:43] and in the years that passed afterwards, [1:01:45] he wrote this vision down in meticulous detail. [1:01:48] He wrote, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages [1:01:50] of rules which dictate every aspect of life inside Opus Dei. [1:01:55] Many of the abusive practices, the grooming of children, [1:01:58] and coercion, all these things that we've talked about, [1:02:01] are actually kind of written down, were written down by the founder [1:02:04] as part of this supposedly divine vision. [1:02:08] So one of the problems that the Vatican has in reforming this group [1:02:12] is the fact that its members believe that these abusive practices [1:02:18] are kind of part of this divine vision that's been handed down. [1:02:22] And the fact that this guy is now revered as a saint [1:02:26] kind of reinforces that it's almost like the Vatican's given this guy [1:02:31] the stamp of approval. [1:02:32] he's telling everyone that this is all divinely inspired and so i think it's going to be very [1:02:39] difficult to untangle all of that because um you know one thing is addressing the abuses and these [1:02:46] abusive practices you know the vatican could turn around tomorrow and say you're not allowed to do [1:02:52] xyz anymore but if if the membership believe that this is what god wants them to do they're going [1:02:59] to ignore what, you know, Paul Bria wants them to do. They're going to ignore what some, you know, [1:03:04] somebody in the dicastery of the clergy has just ordered them to do. They're going to stick to this [1:03:08] divine vision. And so I think that's at the heart of the problem in addressing how to, you know, [1:03:14] what to do about this group, I think. Interesting. Now, you hinted at this a little bit earlier, [1:03:21] and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but this might be your first interview since meeting with [1:03:27] the Holy Father, meeting with Pope Leo XIV. Tell us, how did the meeting go? What was it like? [1:03:34] What was he like? What did you guys talk about? If you can share any details, this is fascinating. [1:03:42] So I literally got a call completely out of the blue from someone who told me that [1:03:47] Pope Leo had learned about my work and was very keen to meet. I, of course, said yes. [1:03:53] I mean, how often do you get a call saying the Pope wants to meet you? [1:03:58] And I turned up at the Vatican last week, not really knowing what to expect. [1:04:06] I didn't know whether he'd call me there to basically have a go at me for having dared to call out, you know, or whether he was. [1:04:14] I just didn't know what to expect. No one had told me anything. [1:04:17] But what I did know is that I realized that this was a unique opportunity to really give the Pope directly the information that he needed. [1:04:28] And so I went there with a list of points that I wanted to make in my head. [1:04:31] And also I had a piece of paper in my pocket I could rely on just in case, you know, the enormity of the moment kind of was overwhelming. [1:04:39] And I forgot what I was talking about. [1:04:40] But I also went with a huge pile. [1:04:44] You know, people traditionally take presents for the Pope. [1:04:48] And my presence to him was this enormous pile of documents, [1:04:52] secret internal documents from Opus Dei, [1:04:55] outlining the abuses that happened inside the group, [1:04:58] testimonies from, you know, various survivors, [1:05:01] and also, you know, this prosecutor's report from Argentina [1:05:05] outlining how the group operated there. [1:05:07] So I took them as a present for this reading material for him. [1:05:11] Because I realized the Pope, who knows how much information is actually getting to him. [1:05:18] Opus Dei's penetration of the Vatican is pretty deep. [1:05:23] We don't know how many people it has, you know, members and people affiliated to the group working at the Vatican, filtering what information kind of goes up the chain. [1:05:34] And so I very much approached the meeting as this, you know, unique opportunity to tell him what he needs to know so that he can go off and make whatever decision he thinks is necessary. [1:05:46] And, you know, I thought there was a real risk that my directness, my frankness might be kind of frowned upon or, you know, breaching Vatican etiquette or whatever. [1:05:59] But in fact, he was extremely welcoming of that approach. [1:06:03] I think he invited me there because that's precisely what he wanted. [1:06:09] He wanted an unvarnished, truthful account of what I had uncovered. [1:06:15] Perhaps because he felt that he couldn't fully trust the people around him to be providing him with, you know, and I'm not implying that there's, you know, this is people, malicious actors, although maybe there are as well. [1:06:28] But I think in a hierarchy, whether it's corporates or government or whatever, I think sometimes there's a reluctance to pass information on right to the top because then there's this kind of, we can deny that, you know, the guy at the top never knew and that's why no action was taken. [1:06:45] But I kind of, I thought it was important to really kind of to bring that information to his attention. [1:06:51] So I think from that perspective, the meeting was a huge success. [1:06:57] and i mean one thing that surprised me in fact was um the vatican itself took the decision i was not [1:07:05] involved in this in any way to publicize the meeting so i i didn't know whether the meeting [1:07:09] was going to be kind of off the books or whether i'd be asked to kind of to keep it all confidential [1:07:14] um at the end of the meeting in fact i asked the pope whether it would be okay for me to go away [1:07:20] and write about the meeting and he said he would welcome that i think you know the fact that they [1:07:26] announced the meeting they invited photographers in to take pictures of us you know you just seen [1:07:30] the photo there i think the pope wants to send a message that he is listening he's taking these [1:07:35] allegations extremely seriously and i think i mean this is me reading between the lines but i think [1:07:43] he wants to send a message to catholics around the world that um you know this is a new era [1:07:51] and that the old ways of cover-ups and, you know, lack of transparency that over he wants to set a new tone for his papacy. [1:08:02] And maybe, you know, whether he agrees with me or not, whether, you know, he decides to close this group down or let them carry on as they are, [1:08:11] he at least is listening to other views. I think he wants to send out that important message. [1:08:16] Sure. Yeah, you know, and it's interesting, too. You know, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on. [1:08:21] is because the moment that that, I mean, I guess not the moment, but two days after you met with [1:08:28] the Pope, there was this kind of big scandal that broke out with the Pope having prayed to [1:08:38] Pachamama, right? This is this South American fertility goddess. And, you know, I'm friends [1:08:44] with Father Altman. I love him. He's great. He's one of the canceled priests. But I asked the [1:08:48] question, is it possible that Opus Dei leaked this information to whip up anti-Leo sentiment in the [1:08:55] church following the Holy Father's recent meeting with Gareth Gore? You know, I don't think that [1:09:00] this is outside of the tactics that are commonly used by Opus Dei. Do you have any thoughts on [1:09:07] that? Do you think it's possible? Am I crazy? Have I been drinking too much conspiracy juice? [1:09:11] well first of all i'm not sure the photo shows him praying to me the photo shows he's just sat [1:09:19] down in a seat it's not really clear what he's doing yeah and you know i'm not to defend him [1:09:24] i'll leave this to but i'm guessing that you know in the area that he was you know catholic priests [1:09:32] go and attend you know they they you know they they want to be in the community you want to be [1:09:37] seen and they attend meetings the CIC for example was hosting Zionists at the at the Opus Dei Center [1:09:44] in central Washington right you know I don't see any photographs being distributed about about that [1:09:50] and any kind of scandal around that I mean it kind of seems kind of normal to me that he would [1:09:55] be involved in the community and sometimes attending events um you know not necessarily [1:10:02] supporting those events but just attending them as as his role as a as a local priest [1:10:06] um i mean it's interesting but you know since my meeting there there have been other instances as [1:10:13] well where you see a clear attempt to kind of undermine what the pope is doing i mean there was [1:10:20] a story in paris match over the weekend where they quoted one opus day official about my meeting [1:10:28] and this official basically was kind of undermining the pope's entire agenda he was implying that [1:10:35] I had um got all of these I had some kind of political connections inside the Vatican that's [1:10:41] the way I got this meeting with the Pope which is completely untrue I don't know a single person [1:10:46] in the Vatican I you know the the initiative to meet me was the Pope's own initiative and his [1:10:53] alone um and so but the kind of the fact that they're kind of spinning these narratives it's [1:10:59] all about kind of avoiding the truth because the truth is extremely damaging damaging for opus day [1:11:06] and for its allies i mean you know the bottom line here is that this is an abusive group that has [1:11:12] um taken advantage of people's of the good nature of catholics to to to basically draw these people [1:11:19] into their own political project yeah um and so i think um you know the truth is something that [1:11:26] could be extremely damaging for this group and which is why we're seeing them trying to fight [1:11:30] back and trying to spin these um these narratives these false narratives because it's a way of not [1:11:37] actually engaging with the matters at hand now i know i want to be conscious of your time we're [1:11:43] just over an hour uh so i just got a couple of final questions or whatever um one of them being [1:11:51] what is your religious views are you catholic um what is your my father was catholic my mother [1:12:00] was church of england um anglican um we i was brought up in a i mean we occasionally went to [1:12:08] church but not very often my dad never really kind of practiced his catholicism at least at home [1:12:13] um i would describe myself these days as agnostic i think i mean i hate to kind of put a label i [1:12:20] I don't know, like it's not something I think about deeply all that often. [1:12:25] But I mean, I would stress as well that the fact that I'm not religious has kind of been thrown at me as some kind of, you know, as a way to try to, I guess, undermine the work that I've done. [1:12:38] I think it's important to stress that I came to this story completely by accident. [1:12:43] I'm a financial reporter. [1:12:44] I was following a financial story and it just so happened that this financial story became this much bigger thing. [1:12:53] And, you know, I did. I told the most factual, truthful story I could. [1:12:59] I followed the facts and I did the best job I could in trying to write those facts down and in as neutral a way as I could. [1:13:07] personally I don't think my non-religiosity should be an issue here I'm just a journalist [1:13:15] doing my job trying to expose wrongdoing trying to tell a story and so yeah but but look yeah I [1:13:23] mean agnostic is the short answer okay okay a little bit of a tangent but you know I'd be [1:13:30] remiss if I didn't ask you what are your thoughts about what has been going on with the Trump [1:13:36] administration, right? We have this board of peace that just was announced. It seems like a [1:13:42] giant money laundering operation. And what are your thoughts also on the markets? You know, [1:13:48] as we're speaking, there's this war in Iran that is raging. Oil has soared. It's well over $100 [1:13:54] a barrel. And as that's happening, gold and silver are like crashing. I mean, it's something [1:14:01] like six or seven trillion dollars of market cap in gold has been wiped out in like the last [1:14:06] 72 hours. What are your thoughts about the war, about the economy or the finance behind it? And [1:14:14] what are your thoughts on Trump, corruption, and the kind of goings on with the Board of Peace, [1:14:20] if you have any? My thoughts on the war is that, you know, like, I think this war was [1:14:27] avoidable and it's it's um clearly caused a huge amount of human suffering and and also kind of [1:14:37] wider societal economic suffering as well that's not just focused in the countries where these [1:14:42] these bombings are taking taking place and you know it's it's it's very sad to see what's [1:14:48] happening happening i think uh there could have well have been a political solution to all of this [1:14:53] But, you know, certain parties, I guess, decided that the political route wasn't working or they didn't want it to work. [1:15:01] I'm not sure. I mean, on Trump, I think I would say, you know, look, I'm not sure it's the place of a Brit to be telling Americans what to think about the politicians. [1:15:12] You know, you guys quite rightly, you know, decided you'd had enough of us 200 years, 250 years ago or whatever. [1:15:20] you know like but um but what i would say is that i think um as a journalist it's kind of [1:15:31] i am slightly worried about what i see happening to the the the world of journalism in the u.s i [1:15:39] think it's becoming increasingly polarized people are increasingly just existing inside [1:15:46] echo chambers only listening to people they agree with and are dismissing any views that they [1:15:53] disagree with as fake news and you know i think as as a journalist who aspires to actually kind of [1:16:00] get to the bottom of things and try to find out what is actually happening i hope with um you know [1:16:06] without any kind of political agenda to to to to my reporting you know there are good journalists [1:16:13] out there who actually just who are just trying to find out what's happening and trying to report [1:16:18] the truth and you know i i think it's very sad um the way that the kind of the world of journalism [1:16:25] has has evolved and i think that's feeding into a lot of the things that are happening politically [1:16:32] as well i think there's a lot of things happening politically that would have been unacceptable [1:16:36] a few years ago and i think politicians um you know and i'm not just talking about trump here [1:16:44] and but there are you know of all sides are kind of getting away with things that they wouldn't [1:16:49] otherwise do because because within they know that their supporters who will only listen to [1:16:56] the echo chamber are not going to kind of hear about the corruption or fraud or whatever it's [1:17:01] you know or the deception that's going on yeah and so i think these echo chambers are allowing [1:17:06] political actors to get away with things that they shouldn't be getting away with whether that's [1:17:11] corruption or whatever it might be and i think that's um a very sad state of affairs and you know [1:17:18] um yeah and i think and i'm not just saying this to criticize conservatives or the right or whatever [1:17:24] i think you know everybody should be held to account whatever you know and and that's kind [1:17:29] of the job that journalists are meant to perform and yeah to see it becoming you know more and more [1:17:35] politicized is is not not the kind of not the world of journalism that I signed up to. [1:17:42] Right. Yeah. You know, it's crazy seeing what's going on in America. We've got these [1:17:45] massive corporate takeovers from people like Larry Ellison, massive donor, by the way, [1:17:50] to Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud party. He's given money and weapons to the IDF, [1:17:55] which have been used to kill innocent women and children. And, you know, he he did this merger [1:18:01] with Barry Weiss to take over CBS News, Paramount Plus, TikTok. [1:18:09] It's deeply disconcerting. [1:18:11] But also, you know, journalism has been suffering in this country. [1:18:16] And it's not just due to like AI. [1:18:18] It's not just due to politicization. [1:18:23] You know, there has been a lot of fake news. [1:18:25] And people are like not buying newspapers anymore. [1:18:28] and what newspapers are there. [1:18:31] You know, it's like Washington Post [1:18:32] is really just kind of the mouthpiece of Jeff Bezos. [1:18:35] Where we live in North Idaho, [1:18:37] the newspaper here is just, [1:18:39] it's an outlet for the local resort [1:18:41] to convince people that North Idaho [1:18:43] is a beautiful place to take a vacation. [1:18:46] They're not really reporting on corruption. [1:18:48] There's human trafficking going on up here, [1:18:50] a health facility that is taking minor children [1:18:53] across the border into Washington [1:18:55] to procure abortions and transgender sex surgeries [1:18:58] which is illegal in Idaho, but they're able to do that. But it's like, you know, [1:19:04] good journalists, independent journalists are very hard up for cash, frankly. I mean, [1:19:11] nobody's paying for this stuff. Everybody expects to go on the internet, log on to X and get your [1:19:15] news for free. And so that actually kind of makes, how were you able to write your book? I mean, [1:19:21] I doubt that you're getting rich doing, you know, financial journalism, but I think you had to take [1:19:27] some time off to actually research and write the book. Did you have anybody that like backed you [1:19:32] or was able to like financially support you while you were doing your research? [1:19:36] No, I mean, so basically I was, this was a hobby for me. So I did a lot of the kind of initial [1:19:42] research in my evenings, in my weekends. It was just a story that I got into and just couldn't [1:19:48] let go. And it took me about three years of kind of doing that at the side of my day job with [1:19:55] Nobody at all, you know, no one giving me a single penny to fund this. [1:20:00] It took me about three years to put together a full book proposal. [1:20:04] And then I found an agent and my agent took my book proposal to a number of publishers. [1:20:10] And eventually Simon Schuster decided that they wanted to publish the book and they gave me, you know, this is no secret. [1:20:17] This is what happens in the world of books. [1:20:19] You get an advance. [1:20:20] They say, yes, we want it. [1:20:22] They give you an advance. [1:20:23] And then with the money from the advance, the money was enough for me to take a couple of years away, well, 18 months away from my job to basically write the book. [1:20:33] But, you know, this hasn't made me rich. [1:20:36] And, you know, and that's not the reason I kind of went into this. [1:20:40] I, as a journalist, you kind of dream of these stories. [1:20:43] You dream of, you know, being able to kind of find a story that no one else has told. [1:20:50] and dream of these stories were every kind of the more you dig the more interesting and crazy and [1:20:57] like and fascinating it becomes and this was just one of those stories i mean i would love to have [1:21:03] something else like this to kind of do next um but um but yeah these things maybe only one of [1:21:09] these things comes along in a lifetime i'm not sure yeah but um because there's been very keen [1:21:14] to push this line of you know there's some billionaire who's trying to bring them down [1:21:19] or some group of former members who are kind of financing this thing. [1:21:24] That is absolutely not the case. [1:21:26] I literally, this was a hobby. [1:21:29] I wrote a book proposal, as many, many, many nonfiction authors do. [1:21:33] And then we went out to every publisher we could find, [1:21:38] and one of them decided to turn it into a book. [1:21:41] Nice. [1:21:42] Simple story. [1:21:42] Got it. [1:21:43] Got it. [1:21:44] And I guess this is the last question, [1:21:46] and I'd be remiss if I did not bring this up. [1:21:49] There is a response or a rebuttal that was made by Opus Dei. I'll put the link, you know, just in fairness or whatever. People can make up their own mind, you know, watching this podcast. They can read your book, of course. They can, you know, Google. But Opus Dei did put out a, I guess, clarification and fact checking of Opus by Gareth Gore. [1:22:11] and so I'm not obviously going to read this whole thing. [1:22:15] It's quite long. [1:22:17] But do you have a rebuttal to the rebuttal [1:22:20] or do you have, I guess, anything to say [1:22:23] about Opus Dei's response to you? [1:22:28] I mean, I think all I would say is that [1:22:30] if the book were as erroneous and full of lies [1:22:36] as they say it is, [1:22:37] then this would have been settled in the courts. [1:22:39] you know they they they they didn't sue because they knew they they didn't have a leg to stand on [1:22:45] i think that document is mainly directed at the at the membership of opus day there are almost [1:22:52] 100 000 members of opus day around the world it's something that the institution can point to and [1:22:57] say ah you know what yeah you've we yes you've heard of this book what don't read the book what [1:23:02] you need to do is go away and read this document we've thoroughly been through we've been through [1:23:06] the book for you and you know they call it clarifications and fact checking most of this [1:23:11] document is just them trying to have the final say to explain away these abuses um to to the [1:23:19] membership and um you know no part of the book has been kind of we've not had to pull any bit [1:23:27] of the book or like or anything like that nothing has changed as a result of this document so i [1:23:34] I think that tells you all you need to know. [1:23:36] Yeah. [1:23:37] Do you think, after meeting with Pope Leo, [1:23:40] do you think that Opus Dei can make changes, [1:23:46] that it can make change, [1:23:47] or do you think that the group should be abolished? [1:23:50] I guess, what are your thoughts going forward? [1:23:53] It's not my place to decide what to do with this group. [1:23:57] As a journalist, it was, you know, [1:23:59] basically I was just doing my job in pointing out what I discovered, [1:24:02] what, you know, the abuses that I'd found. [1:24:04] But I would point you back to the answer I gave before about this problem at the heart of Opus Dei, the fact that the founder made everybody believe that this was a divine revelation, that the words he'd written down, this kind of abusive system of control that he wrote down in hundreds of pages of documents that are still kept in every single Opus Dei residence around the world. [1:24:30] They're kept under lock and key in every residence, whether it's in Washington, New York, London, Tokyo, wherever it might be. [1:24:39] These documents still govern all aspects of life inside Opus Dei. [1:24:43] The membership still believes that these writings were inspired by this divine revelation. [1:24:51] And so I don't think you can allow Opus Dei to continue without that always being a problem. [1:24:58] people will always so long as opus day is in existence um and opus day was founded by this guy [1:25:07] people are going to believe that this you know these documents are divine revelation and the [1:25:13] abuses and um control mechanisms and the grooming of children all these other dark things inside of [1:25:20] these documents they'll believe that they are kind of mandated by god himself and so i think [1:25:25] to allow Opus Dei to continue is to allow that kind of mindset to continue. And, you know, [1:25:33] I don't think there's an easy solution here. You either allow the group to carry on knowing that [1:25:38] some of those practices might carry on kind of underground, or you close it down and then you've [1:25:44] got this, yeah, which would be a very controversial thing to do, and then raises all of these [1:25:49] questions about, can this guy still be a saint? Was the church wrong in kind of making, like, [1:25:57] there is no easy answer. I do not, I do not envy Pope Leo in his position of having to make a [1:26:05] decision about this. Yeah. You know, he's got, he's got quite the, quite the job. You know, [1:26:09] the, there, there's a traditionalist group that is, you know, in, in July 1st of this year, [1:26:14] they're going to be consecrating new bishops without his approval. And that of course is also [1:26:19] So similar, maybe of a similar kind of gravity, whether or not the Pope is going to excommunicate the SSPX again or or if this is going to lead to some sort of like doctrinal talks or anything like that. [1:26:30] But anyway, people that are watching this, they can follow you on X. [1:26:36] You are Gareth underscore Gore. [1:26:38] of course your book is available on amazon uh opus the cult of dark money human trafficking [1:26:46] and right-wing conspiracy inside the catholic church uh and you also have a sub stack uh it is [1:26:52] gareth gore.substack.com and of course all of the links will be available in the show notes below so [1:27:00] gareth thank you so much for taking the time uh to join me today and to uh to talk about this [1:27:05] I really appreciate it. [1:27:07] Wonderful. [1:27:09] Thank you. [1:27:10] Well, that was a fascinating conversation with Gareth Gore. [1:27:13] We do appreciate him coming on. [1:27:14] You know, it's really interesting with a lot of this stuff because it's like on the one hand, [1:27:20] I'm not okay with all of the kind of backroom deals, the weird manipulation that seems to be happening with this group. [1:27:28] But also they're like kind of based in a weird way too, you know, where they've got, you know, [1:27:34] these ties to the Franco regime, right wing, they're anti-communist, they're anti-socialist, [1:27:40] they're anti-progressive. So this has me torn, you know. I wish that there was a group like Opus [1:27:47] Dei that, you know, had as its governing principle, you know, Christ permeating every aspect of [1:27:56] society, permeating your work, your playtime, your friendships, you know. He really, Christ should be [1:28:03] king of our hearts, of our families, of our society, and govern every aspect of our lives. [1:28:08] But, you know, we'll see what happens with Opus Dei. I have reached out to an Opus Dei priest. [1:28:15] We will see if perhaps he joins us on the show. I'd love to talk with him and address some of [1:28:21] these allegations and maybe try to get to the bottom a little bit more of what's been going on [1:28:26] with Opus Dei. So we'll see what happens with that. Maybe say a prayer. I think it would be [1:28:31] good to hear both sides of the story. So with that, what else do we have? I think we need to [1:28:39] do a little bit of sponsor posting. We've got to thank our wonderful sponsors for helping to make [1:28:46] this program possible. Of course, odggsupply.com. They have got all of your preps, everything you [1:28:55] need to be ready for a civil disaster for civil unrest at odggsupply.com from blankie mode to [1:29:02] tactical bug out mode they have got you covered with everything from tactical gear to night vision [1:29:09] and thermals uh body armor plate carriers all kinds of stuff uh over at odggsupply.com hey [1:29:18] look at this they've even got a uh bro i'm just like we're doing this podcast and it's like [1:29:25] super serious. And then it's like, oh, by the way, if you need a jar to urinate in, [1:29:30] you can buy that for $17.76 over at odggsupply.com. 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So once again, if you're into the Bitcoin stuff, [1:35:40] I haven't been hitting the Bitcoin stuff hard. You know, everybody was all, oh, Dave's going to [1:35:45] turn this into a Bitcoin podcast. This is going to get boring. And actually I haven't, it's been [1:35:51] like 10 episodes solo. And we haven't gone down the Bitcoin rabbit hole yet, but we will, we've [1:36:00] got an amazing guest that we're working on lining up to talk about freedom tech and open source code [1:36:06] vibe coding ai and bitcoin and so we'll have more information on that throughout the week also uh [1:36:13] big collaborations going on later this week with alex from odgg supply i'm going to be driving out [1:36:21] to seattle and getting kitted out for a bug out you know because as the war continues things are [1:36:29] going to get crazier and crazier here stateside, whether it's the price of gas and oil going up, [1:36:36] potentially supply chains being disrupted. Now is the time to be prepared and we are going to do a [1:36:42] lot of really fun content together later this week. So keep an eye out for that. And yeah, [1:36:50] a lot of really interesting interviews coming up. I see, I would tell you, I want to tell you [1:36:57] who's coming on the show, but, you know, these Zionists have been harassing people that we've [1:37:02] had on the show. That's why I had to kind of keep the Gareth Gore thing under my hat until it was [1:37:08] recorded. You know, they just can't stop fucking with you, you know? Anyway, thank you so much for [1:37:16] joining me this evening. It was wonderful to hang out with you. It was great to talk with Gareth [1:37:22] Gore. And once again, you know, Opus Dei would love to talk with a priest from you guys. Love [1:37:29] to hear both sides of the story. And, you know, like I said, again, I think that this idea of like [1:37:34] organizing on a religious grounds to make Christ the king of society, I think that this is a great [1:37:43] thing. I think that this should be done. It's praiseworthy. But it needs to be done in the [1:37:51] right way and it can't be done while collaborating with people that despise Christ. People like [1:37:58] Habad Lubavitch, you know, and Paul Singer with the Phylos Project. I just don't understand [1:38:04] how we can bring about the social reign of Christ the King while partnering with the people [1:38:11] who put Jesus Christ to death. I just don't understand. [1:38:15] And maybe somebody at Opus Dei can explain it to me in a way that I can understand. [1:38:23] But anyway, thank you so much. [1:38:24] Make sure you like this video. [1:38:26] Subscribe to the channel. [1:38:28] And we'll see you later this week. [1:38:31] God bless and good night.